Ma Yu was not surprised by this question. He was certain that Li Wen had come to see a death-row inmate like him in person specifically because of the Iron Voucher. Discussing the relocation of the capital and similar topics was merely a way to break the ice.
The reason was simple: the matter of the Iron Voucher concerned the survival of their family, and it was something that had to be clarified.
Ma Yu did not answer directly. When he spoke to Li Wu, it was mainly to vent his grievances against Zhu Yuanzhang. Naturally, he said whatever came to mind, choosing the most sensational and extreme angles possible. He could not adopt that same attitude with Li Wen. It was clear that Li Wen and those behind him were taking this matter seriously, and his current answer would very likely determine the survival of their family.
Ma Yu was a man on death row with no personal ties to the Li family; he didn't care what happened to them. However, he had truly been well-treated by Li Wu in prison. As a man, he believed in returning kindness for kindness and revenge for hatred. Even if he couldn't help them, he certainly wouldn't spout nonsense that would lead to their ruin.
After some thought, he countered with a question: "What constitutes an unjust act? In your opinion, what is considered benevolence and righteousness for a monarch?"
Zhu Biao was taken aback. He hadn't expected such a question and found himself lost in deep thought. A monarch's benevolence? Wasn't it about governing diligently, loving the people, reducing taxes, and fostering harmony between sovereign and ministers... to create a golden age? But judging by the tone of his companion, there was a deeper meaning. What could it be?
After a long time, unable to grasp the point, he cupped his hands and said, "I am slow-witted, Brother Ma. Please, enlighten me."
Ma Yu did not answer directly but instead asked, "How does Brother Li view the Han Emperor Gaozu's execution of his meritorious subjects?"
Zhu Biao instinctively wanted to say that Emperor Gaozu was ruthless and ungrateful, killing those who had helped him through hard times but could not share in the spoils of prosperity. But just as the words reached his lips, he realized it wasn't that simple. History had already judged the matter; Ma Yu wouldn't be asking such a trivial question. He must be implying something else. Thinking back to their previous conversation, he felt a flicker of realization, but whenever he tried to grasp it, it remained vague and elusive. This left him feeling immensely frustrated.
Seeing him frown, Ma Yu thought to himself that the young man was still too green. An old fox versed in the ways of politics would have understood the principle long ago. But for a youth of thirteen or fourteen, having this much insight was already impressive; there was no need to be too demanding.
He offered a hint: "If Emperor Gaozu hadn't purged the kings of different surnames, what would have happened in the future?"
To Zhu Biao, these words were like a lightning bolt, tearing through the fog and revealing what was hidden beneath. When people thought of the vassal kings of the Han Dynasty, what came to mind first? The Rebellion of the Seven States. If even the descendants of the Gaozu had acted that way, the consequences would have been far more severe if those kings had been of different surnames. It might have plunged the world into war once again. A life in chaotic times was worth less than a dog's in times of peace—Zhu Biao knew the true meaning of that saying all too well.
Therefore, Emperor Gaozu’s purging of the vassal kings had nothing to do with benevolence or lack thereof; it was about eliminating the roots of chaos. In the long run, it was an act that benefited both the state and the people.
But... this answer was too unconventional, completely contradicting the education he had received. Zhu Biao couldn't accept it at once and countered, "But those kings of different surnames had rendered great service. Emperor Gaozu should have found other ways to eliminate the danger. To directly dispatch troops to exterminate their entire clans was, in itself, an act of injustice."
Ma Yu shook his head. "The way to eliminate the danger was actually quite simple; one only needed to look at Wu Rui, the King of Changsha."
Wu Rui, the King of Changsha, had voluntarily ceded part of his fiefdom to the imperial court. He turned over all gold and copper mining resources within his borders, handed over sixty percent of local tax revenue to the state treasury, and reduced his own army, keeping only a basic honor guard. Of the seven kings of different surnames at the start of the Han Dynasty, only the King of Changsha was allowed a peaceful end. The Kingdom of Changsha was passed down for four generations and was only dissolved when the bloodline ended.
Why was it that while the conflict between the central government and the vassal kings was so intense, the Kingdom of Changsha could remain safe? Nothing else: there was no threat. To put it simply, Liu Bang did not purge the kings of different surnames; he purged local forces that posed a threat to the central government. It just so happened that the kings of different surnames possessed that kind of power. According to the *Records of the Grand Historian*, Liu Bang ennobled 137 meritorious subjects, 130 of whom died of natural causes. Only six kings of different surnames were dealt with by Liu Bang himself—this is historical fact. So, who exactly was calling him ruthless?
"So, the question is: would Han Xin, Peng Yue, and the others have been willing to learn from the King of Changsha, voluntarily give up their interests, and lower the danger they posed?"
Zhu Biao remained silent. The answer was simple: impossible. To block someone's path to wealth is like killing their parents, let alone giving up even greater power. But... "Since Emperor Gaozu knew the danger of the vassal kings, why did he still enfeoff his own descendants as kings? Did he not see the looming disaster?"
Ma Yu sighed. "He must have understood. Doing so was merely a matter of being forced by circumstances. As for the reasons... that involves another vast subject unrelated to today's topic, so I won't dwell on it."
"Now, back to the Iron Voucher. You should understand why I say that possessing one is a death sentence. Even if it weren't Zhu Yuanzhang, any other emperor who had the world at heart would make the same choice." With an Iron Voucher, it would be troublesome for future emperors to deal with the powerful elite. If the elite grew too powerful, the dignity of the imperial court would vanish—that is the path to national ruin. If the country ceases to exist, what can the people cling to? The commoners would be the ultimate victims. Any ruler with foresight would find a way to resolve this issue.
Zhu Biao nodded, and the misunderstandings he held regarding his father began to fade. So, it wasn't that his father was cruel... no, that so-called cruelty was, in fact, the greatest benevolence to all the people under heaven.
At this thought, everything became clear. He was about to express his thanks when Ma Yu changed his tone. "Of course, as you said earlier, there is more than one way to solve a problem. If it were a broad-minded ruler like Emperor Gaozu or Emperor Taizong of Tang, they would have found ways to recall the Iron Vouchers. But a man like Zhu Yuanzhang is stingy and ungrateful; he would likely solve the problem by getting rid of both the person and the voucher together."
Having said these final words, Ma Yu felt refreshed. *That's more like my persona as a 'Ming hater.' Everything I said before was basically whitewashing Zhu Yuanzhang... as a hater, it feels so stifling.*
Zhu Biao, who had been feeling quite happy and whose impression of Ma Yu had improved significantly, saw his expression stiffen at these last words. He felt a deep sense of helplessness; this Ma Yu had a very deep-seated prejudice against his father. He had to find a way to resolve it, otherwise, even if he wanted to pardon him, it wouldn't be possible. But those were things for later; for now, he had to handle the task at hand.
He stood up and bowed solemnly. "The grace of your teaching, Brother Ma, is engraved in my heart. I will surely repay you handsomely in the future."
Ma Yu accepted the gesture nonchalantly and waved his hand. "What future? If you really want to thank me, make my remaining days more comfortable. Once 'Zhu the Skinflinter' returns, I won't have a chance to enjoy myself anymore."
Zhu Biao: ... He took a deep breath, forced a smile, and said, "Brother Ma, he is, after all, the Son of Heaven. Addressing him in such a way is truly not in accordance with protocol."
Ma Yu said with disdain, "The Son of Heaven? Whose Son of Heaven is he? I haven't been a subject of his Great Ming for a single day; on the contrary, my life is at stake because of the state he established."
Zhu Biao explained, "That is the work of corrupt officials below; His Majesty is unaware."
Ma Yu interrupted him. "Who gave those officials their power? If others use the power he granted them to do evil, how can it have nothing to do with him?"
The phrase *If there is sin in the world, the fault lies with me* flashed through Zhu Biao’s mind. All the faults of the world, carried on his own shoulders. He had once thought this phrase was grandiose, believing the person who could say it must have a boundless heart. But now, he could feel the helplessness within it. As an emperor, regardless of whether you know what the officials are doing, the final blame will always return to you. Because you are the emperor, and the power those people use to do evil comes from you.
This left him feeling heavy, but the burden did not make him retreat; rather, it fueled his fighting spirit. Bearing the welfare of all people under heaven was the responsibility of the Son of Heaven. If not for this, how could one be the Son of Heaven? How could one be the father of the people? Heaven had entrusted this world to his Zhu family, and they had to live up to this Mandate of Heaven. End the chaos, and restore clarity to the world.
With this thought, he stood straight and turned his gaze to Ma Yu. The newly founded Great Ming needed talent, and although this youth's background was mysterious, his insights were extraordinary. His previous analysis had been brilliant. It would be a pity to execute him just like that. But Ma Yu's attitude toward the emperor was problematic; if it got out, his father would become a laughingstock, and his dignity would be damaged. Ma Yu would surely die, and no one could save him. Zhu Biao hadn't even realized that, unknowingly, he had already made his choice.
*No, I must change his attitude toward the Great Ming and my father.* But his prejudices were deep; pushing too hard might prove counterproductive. He had to find another way.
*Got it...* Zhu Biao’s eyes flickered as an idea emerged. He put on a bitter smile and bowed. "Brother Ma, my urging you this way is, in fact, out of selfishness. My younger brother knows you, and I have had a pleasant conversation with you. To tell you the truth, I wish to continue asking you for advice in the future. But if you call His Majesty by his name so bluntly, and if my brother and I turn a blind eye, should it get out, it could implicate our entire clan."
Ma Yu scratched his head. It seemed that was true. If someone calls the emperor by his name and you ignore it, that is also a grave crime. *What? You want to talk about human rights? Don't be funny; this is a society of imperial power. Daring to talk about human rights with the emperor is a capital offense in itself.* Greeting Zhu Yuanzhang by name in front of the brothers would indeed cause big trouble if it leaked out. The key was that if he really scared these two brothers away, his remaining days in prison would be miserable. Although he had accepted death, he didn't want to suffer before dying.
*Forget it, I'll stop cursing him for now.* With this thought, Ma Yu apologized. "Sorry, it was my oversight. I nearly put you in danger. From now on, as long as you are here, I will refer to him as the Emperor."
Zhu Biao was delighted and hurriedly said, "Thank you for your understanding, Brother Ma, but..."
Ma Yu asked suspiciously, "What is it?"
Zhu Biao said with a look of shame, "Many officials in Yingtian Prefecture know of our relationship. If you show disrespect to His Majesty in front of others... should His Majesty investigate, we would all be implicated. Could you, for the sake of your younger brother, refrain from calling His Majesty by his name in the future?"
He bowed repeatedly, his attitude extremely sincere. As the saying goes, one does not hit a smiling face; although Ma Yu felt the other party was pushing his luck, he couldn't get angry. He replied impatiently, "You... fine. For Brother Li's sake, I won't curse him to his face."
He added, "He really should make you a marquis for this."
Zhu Biao thanked him repeatedly, though he was frantically grumbling to himself. *Make me a marquis? If I weren't the Crown Prince, we’d both be dismembered for this.* This man was not only unafraid of death, he was also ignorant. But he also noticed something: the threat of death couldn't stop him from insulting the emperor, yet the small kindnesses from his younger brother were enough to make him change his tone. This Ma Yu was a person who clearly distinguished between gratitude and enmity. One couldn't use force with such a person; he had to be won over with kindness. It seemed he would have to keep his younger brother in prison.
Afterward, Zhu Biao brought up the Iron Voucher again and thanked Ma Yu once more. In truth, this topic had reached its end. Everything that needed to be said had been said, and the reasons analyzed clearly. Having an Iron Voucher meant certain death; if you don't want to die, find a way to refuse it. Talking further would just be a waste of breath.
They chatted briefly to conclude the topic and moved on. Zhu Biao continued to ask questions, this time about other contents in the secret letter. The topic naturally revolved around Zhu Yuanzhang. After all, Ma Yu had caught the eye of Zhu Shuang—who was in his rebellious phase and dissatisfied with his father’s strict upbringing—precisely by insulting Zhu Yuanzhang. He had said many things like "Zhu Yuanzhang is Zhu Yuanzhang, Zhu Chongba is Zhu Chongba." This was undoubtedly a way of saying Zhu Yuanzhang had forgotten his roots. He even bluntly stated that just because Zhu Yuanzhang came from a poor background didn't mean he truly sympathized with the common people. Because of his humble beginnings, he would place even greater emphasis on rituals and rules—such as requiring everyone to kneel when speaking to him.
Many people think it is normal to kneel when seeing the emperor in ancient times. Not only when seeing the emperor, but subordinates also had to kneel for their superiors. However, in reality, this was not the case. Kneeling was only required during major ceremonies. Usually, when commoners saw officials, subordinates saw superiors, or officials and commoners saw the emperor, kneeling was not required. Before the Tang Dynasty, officials could sit during court audiences; it wasn't until the Song Dynasty that officials were required to stand. It was precisely Zhu Yuanzhang who mandated that officials and commoners must kneel while speaking to the emperor.
In his previous life, Ma Yu had often criticized this point severely, and he had done so countless times since his transmigration. Regarding this, Zhu Biao couldn't defend his father, because there was indeed no way to explain it. It accorded neither with ancient rites nor with the philosophy of benevolence.
But... *If you say my father doesn't care for the people, I cannot tolerate it.* He argued, "His Majesty has repeatedly issued decrees ordering officials to treat the people kindly. He has struck hard against corrupt officials who exploit the people and will never be lenient. How can you say he does not pity the people, Brother Ma?"
Ma Yu sneered, "That is because he knows that if the people cannot survive, they will rebel. His severe punishment of corrupt officials is merely to maintain the rule of the Great Ming."
Seeing Zhu Biao's look of disbelief, he paused and asked, "Do you know how Zhu... the Emperor views Mencius?"
Zhu Biao was stunned. What did this have to do with the view on Mencius? Still, he replied, "His Majesty does indeed disagree with some of Mencius's ideas, but what does that have to do with whether he loves the people?"
Ma Yu said, "It has everything to do with it. Let me put it this way: how one views the philosophies of Guan Zhong and Xunzi determines the upper limit of a dynasty, while how one views the philosophies of Confucius and Mencius determines the lower limit of a dynasty."
It was the first time Zhu Biao had heard the terms "upper limit" and "lower limit," but he understood their meaning. It was precisely because he understood that he was even more shocked. This was the first time he had heard such a statement, and it concerned the rise and fall of a dynasty. He had to get to the bottom of it, regardless of whether it was true or false.
"Oh? I am shallow in my learning and am hearing this for the first time. I beg you, Brother Ma, to enlighten me."