Zhu Biao was extremely shocked. For one thing, he had never heard such a perspective before.
Ma Yu's viewpoint ran completely counter to mainstream Confucianism, and could even be called somewhat treasonous.
Confucius and Mencius were a sage and a secondary sage of Confucianism, the most core figures of the school.
Guanzi belonged to the Legalist school.
Although Xunzi belonged to Confucianism, his theory that human nature is evil had long been considered a heterodox view within the school, keeping him under constant criticism.
Song Lian also predominantly criticized Xunzi, so Zhu Biao was naturally influenced by him to view Xunzi as unorthodox.
Therefore, upon hearing Ma Yu's words, he naturally found it unbelievable.
Although these two men were also ancient sages, how could they possibly be mentioned in the same breath as Confucius and Mencius?
The second reason for his shock lay in the implications revealed by these words.
Putting aside whether this statement held water, the mere fact that Ma Yu could articulate it meant he possessed a certain degree of insight into statecraft.
Do not underestimate this point. Countless officials had been produced through successive dynasties, but the vast majority were merely practitioners of ritual and law.
They simply executed whatever rituals and laws were prescribed from above, possessing no independent insights of their own.
Those who truly possessed unique insights into governing a country were exceedingly rare, and those who could successfully apply those insights to reality were even scarcer.
The crucial question was: what did the Great Ming lack the most right now?
It was precisely talents skilled in statecraft.
Zhu Biao was well aware that although the Great Ming had already been established, its institutional foundation consisted of little more than a set of provisional "Codes and Statutes."
They had been hastily cobbled together by Li Shanchang and his team, who borrowed from the practices of the ancients, making them crude and extremely incomplete.
As for what kind of system the Great Ming should adopt in the future, and what kind of rituals and laws should be used, no one had a clear idea.
Including Li Shanchang, the head of the civil officials, not a single person had a clear plan.
No, they did not even have a vague idea.
If Zhu Biao were a transmigrator, he would surely use four words to describe the current court of the Great Ming:
A makeshift troupe.
One can imagine how shocked he was when he discovered that Ma Yu might actually understand statecraft.
Whether Ma Yu's views were correct was no longer all that important.
The important thing was to quickly ascertain whether he truly understood governance.
Therefore, rather than refuting Ma Yu's viewpoint, he adopted the posture of a humble student seeking instruction and asked for the other's insights.
Ma Yu was unaware of this mental process and gave the question no further thought.
Moreover, Zhu Biao's sincere and slightly urgent attitude gave him a profound sense of smug satisfaction.
No wonder transmigrators all loved showing off before others; the feeling of using an information gap to act superior in front of ancients was simply too exhilarating.
Though brimming with triumph inside, he kept his expression calm on the outside and replied:
"In short, Confucius's teachings teach us how to be a person."
"Mencius's teachings tell us what a country is, what a family is, what a ruler is, what a minister is, and what the people are."
"They established a benchmark, giving our words and deeds a point of reference."
Zhu Biao frowned slightly—not because he disagreed with this view, but because Ma Yu kept tossing out entirely new terms.
He had to pause and think just to understand what they meant, which he found rather unaccustomed.
Yet once he figured out the implications of these terms, he found them remarkably apt.
These special vocabulary words only further convinced him that Ma Yu possessed a unique and extraordinary lineage of learning.
He must figure out his teacher and what he had studied, Zhu Biao secretly resolved in his heart.
Ma Yu continued, "However, the greatest flaw of Confucian thought—and the flaw of most people within Confucianism—is this:"
"They only speak of outcomes without conclusions."
Confucian scholars excelled at expressing opinions, spouting grand principles, and declaring that this would not do and that would not work.
When you asked them how to solve a problem, they would either fall mute or invoke the ancient kings in an attempt to restore the rule of the Three Dynasties.
"This gives people the impression of being loud and empty, capable only of shouting slogans."
"During the Hundred Schools of Thought period, the criticisms leveled against Confucianism by the other philosophical schools mainly focused on this very point."
Zhu Biao furrowed his brow once more—not because of the unusual terminology, but because these words directly clashed with his own understanding.
As a student of Song Lian, he naturally felt an affinity for Confucianism.
Hearing someone speak ill of it inevitably made him feel somewhat uncomfortable inside.
Yet he did not retort, because he was not merely a student of Song Lian; he was the Crown Prince of the Great Ming.
Compared to the Great Ming, Confucianism suddenly seemed far less important.
Ma Yu could naturally see that he took issue with these remarks, but he was not surprised.
Confucianism currently reigned supreme, and Li Wen had most likely received a Confucian education since childhood.
It was entirely normal for his inherent worldview to be shaken and difficult to accept.
What was remarkable was that, even after his worldview was shaken, he did not burst out in refutation, but instead listened with patience.
This breadth of mind and poise made Ma Yu hold him in even higher regard.
Therefore, he offered a rare word of explanation:
"I know these words might be hard for you to accept, but nothing in this world is flawless."
"Confucian thought is not perfect either; otherwise, dynasties would not rise and fall."
"However, we cannot wholly reject it simply because it is imperfect."
"The fact that Confucian thought has been passed down to the present day already proves its excellence; it needs no argument or explanation."
"Right now, we are merely rationally analyzing its strengths and weaknesses, and then figuring out how to leverage its strengths while making up for its shortcomings."
These words flowed like a warm current through his heart, smoothing away his lingering discontent.
Instead, Zhu Biao apologized, "Thank you for the guidance, Brother Ma. I was being too narrow-minded."
Ma Yu smiled. "Brother Li need not dwell on it. It is only human nature."
"The fact that you can humbly accept differing opinions is already the mark of a gentleman."
The two exchanged a few more polite remarks before picking up the thread of their previous conversation.
Unlike before, however, Zhu Biao's mindset was now much steadier, and he began to seriously ponder Ma Yu's words.
Ma Yu spoke with greater detail and earnestness:
"We mentioned the shortcomings of Confucianism earlier: Confucius and Mencius merely established a benchmark, telling us what is right and what is wrong."
"Yet they did not tell us what actions to take in order to reach the standards they set."
"For instance, Confucius spoke of achieving abundance in food and clothing, but he never explained how to actually ensure that the common people obtain clothing and food."
"Some things they did mention, but only in terms so broad and vague as to be useless."
Zhu Biao raised a doubt: "Aren't exhorting agriculture and sericulture specific methods?"
Ma Yu smiled. "Yes, but every dynasty has done so. Why, then, do dynasties still rise and fall?"
Zhu Biao was left speechless.
Ma Yu followed up on his point, saying, "Governing a country is an immensely complex matter. 'Exhorting agriculture and sericulture' are just four words."
"Yet how are they to be realized? What difficulties will be encountered along the way in encouraging agriculture? And how should those difficulties be resolved?"
"This is a profound field of learning."
"Anyone can spout grand principles, but statecraft requires concrete and practicable methods."
"To this, Confucian thought has not devoted deep exploration."
With his attitude now pacified, Zhu Biao fell into deep contemplation.
His Master Song was profound in scholarship and had taught him many things.
Yet recalling it now, it seemed he had indeed rarely taught concrete measures for solving problems.
Most of the teachings consisted of grand principles regarding the distinction between right and wrong.
At this thought, a flash of realization dawned upon him.
So that was it. Grand principles were not wrong; they served as the benchmark and the point of reference.
They let people know what was right and what was wrong.
Yet grand principles could not fill empty stomachs; wanting people to have enough to eat required concrete policies of statecraft.
Where, then, were these concrete policies of statecraft to be found?
Zhu Biao asked eagerly, "Could it be that the philosophies of Guanzi and Xunzi can teach people concrete strategies?"
From this single question alone, Ma Yu knew that he had never read the works of those two men.
Yet that was only natural; smart as he was, he was only thirteen or fourteen years old and likely hadn't even finished reading the Four Books and Five Classics of Confucianism.
Where would he find the time to read the books of Guanzi and Xunzi?
Furthermore, ever since the Song Dynasty, the status of Guanzi and Xunzi had deteriorated day by day.
Their ideas had grown increasingly neglected and were even subjected to all manner of disparagement and attack.
Li Wen's family presumably had no wish for him to come into contact with such "pernicious" books.
Realizing this, Ma Yu knew how to answer him.
He could not explain things in too much detail, because those two books were profound bodies of learning in their own right and could not be made clear in a few words.
A general introduction, just enough to give him an overall impression of the two books, would suffice.
His mind made up, he spoke:
"Indeed. The core of Xunzi's philosophy can be summed up in a single word: ritual."
"He concretized Confucian thought, transforming it into rituals that can be used to govern a country."
"To put it simply, he can tell you what actions to take in order to approach the benchmark established by Confucius and Mencius."
"As for Guanzi, I would call him the ultimate synthesizer of pragmatism."
Zhu Biao muttered to himself, "Pragmatism... What a fine term, truly a fine term."
Ma Yu thought to himself: *It's a good thing you understand it; it saves me the trouble of explaining.*
"Guanzi was a statesman. He spoke primarily of methods and very little of grand principles."
"Of course, he spoke of grand principles as well, and he spoke of virtue too."
"Guanzi said: 'Rites, righteousness, integrity, and a sense of shame are the four pillars of the state. If the four pillars are not stretched, the state will perish.'"
Zhu Biao asked in surprise, "Rites, righteousness, integrity, and a sense of shame? Aren't these Confucian concepts?"
Ma Yu chuckled lightly. "Guanzi lived even before Confucius, so now you know that Confucianism is not the sole truth."
Zhu Biao took a deep breath and said, "It was I who was narrow-minded."
He had uttered this very phrase just moments ago, but its inner meaning was entirely different now.
This line—*rites, righteousness, integrity, and a sense of shame are the four pillars of the state*—had thoroughly shaken him.
It turned out that the things Confucianism had been constantly emphasizing had been proposed long, long ago and applied to actual practice.
This also kindled a fierce curiosity about Guanzi within him, far more effective than a thousand or ten thousand explanations from Ma Yu.
Ma Yu could not fully comprehend what he was feeling, but he knew the message had hit home.
His heart swelled with a sense of accomplishment; he had finally managed to act cool successfully.
Absolute perfection.
"Let us return to the topic. Guanzi was a statesman, a pragmatist."
"He placed greater emphasis on reality, taking the effective governance of the state as his fundamental objective, with everything else serving merely as means."
"In his mind, a wealthy people and a strong state were paramount; the methods used to achieve them mattered not."
"The reason he advocated virtue was because he believed virtue was beneficial to governance."
"Therefore, his books are filled with concrete methods of statecraft."
"Confucianists are idealists, possessing the mindset of scholars."
"They view virtue as fundamental, believing that so long as virtue is sound, everything else will fall into place and the country will achieve great order."
This reasoning was somewhat convoluted, leaving Zhu Biao slightly bewildered, yet he could still sense the underlying logic within it.
Precisely because he could sense it, he felt all the more shaken.
He also realized how narrow his perspective had been in the past. They said that a single leaf before the eye blocks out the view of Mount Tai.
His vision had been obscured by Confucian thought, causing him to forget that far more schools of thought existed.
Fortunately, he had received Ma Yu's reminder; otherwise, who knew how much longer he would have lingered on that mistaken path.
As for what Ma Yu had said earlier—that Confucius and Mencius determined the lower limit, while Guanzi and Xunzi determined the upper limit—he now fully grasped its meaning.
The philosophies of Confucius and Mencius formed the benchmark; without them, the lower limit of a dynasty tended to be relatively low.
To put it bluntly, things would be comparatively chaotic, and the lives of the common people would be rather bitter.
Guanzi and Xunzi discussed the principles of statecraft and practical application; without studying them, one would not know how to govern a country concretely.
The nation could never grow truly prosperous, meaning the upper limit would not be very high.
Though he had never read the books of Guanzi and Xunzi and could not judge whether Ma Yu's evaluation of them was correct, his theory was undoubtedly logical, and his dissection of Confucianism was piercingly accurate.
The crux was that, judging from this entire conversation, this Ma Yu was not only a man of great talent, but one who truly understood statecraft—precisely the kind of talent his Great Ming required.
He had to find a way to dissolve the prejudices in the man's heart and then persuade his mother and father to spare his life.
Seeing him sit in silence for so long, Ma Yu assumed he remained unconvinced. After a moment's thought, he spoke again:
"There are countless instances in history that prove my words."
"You can go back and flip through the history books: during every period that failed to value Confucius and Mencius, did the common people not suffer miserably?"
"As for Guanzi and Xunzi... well, put it this way: before the Song Dynasty, the status of Guanzi and Xunzi was higher than that of Mencius."
"You can trace this by looking at the evolution of the *Nine Classics*; prior to the Song Dynasty, Mencius was not included in the *Nine Classics*."
"Mencius becoming a secondary sage was something that happened during the Song Dynasty."
"It was also during the Song Dynasty that Guanzi was cast aside like a worn-out shoe, while Xunzi was denounced as heterodox heresy."
"Thus, the lower limit of the Song Dynasty was the highest of any dynasty, but as for the upper limit... well, you understand."
Was the lower limit of the Song Dynasty really that high?
Zhu Biao had never researched the matter and did not know.
Yet he dared to affirm that the upper limit of the Song Dynasty indeed was not particularly high.
This only deepened his agreement with Ma Yu's viewpoint, prompting him to say:
"Confucius and Mencius as the foundation; Guanzi and Xunzi as the application."
"Brother Ma's vast learning and extraordinary insight command Wen's deepest respect."
Confucius and Mencius as the foundation; Guanzi and Xunzi as the application?
Now it was Ma Yu's turn to be shocked.
*Hiss, did this kid actually understand it? He's a complete monster.*
That was impossible. Given the talent this kid displayed, he was bound to accomplish great things.
Why had he never heard of anyone named Li Wen in the early Ming dynasty during his past life?
Though he was not a professional historian, as an internet anti-fan of the Ming, he had read no shortage of Ming history books in order to debate pro-Ming fans online.
He could not claim exhaustive knowledge, but he knew most of the important and famous figures.
He could swear he had never heard the name Li Wen.
That left only one possibility.
He was dead.
At the thought of Zhu Yuanzhang's executioner's blade in the early Ming, his conviction grew even stronger.
His father was most likely a founding meritorious official.
Then the entire family was wiped out, and he did not escape the calamity either.
With this thought, the gaze Ma Yu cast upon him was filled with pity and sympathy.
Zhu Biao, meanwhile, was completely bewildered. *What is with that look in your eyes?*
*You're the convicted criminal here, aren't you? Shouldn't I be the one pitying you and lamenting your talent?*
At that moment, Ma Yu let out a long sigh and said:
"Brother Li, you must remember what I said. Make your father retire at the height of his success..."
"No, have your father lead you all to guard the northern frontiers—the harsher the place, the better."
Zhu Biao instantly understood what he meant.
This guy assumed his father was going to be slaughtered by the emperor—bah! He assumed his father was going to massacre the meritorious officials, and that he himself would be implicated as a result.
Bah! Li Wen would be implicated, which was why he was looking at him with that kind of gaze.
Even though his impression of Ma Yu had vastly improved, Zhu Biao was still utterly exasperated.
How could this fellow hold a grudge for so long?
He really wanted to teach him a severe lesson.